Ottawa's tram trains have platform edge sensors. If one stands close to the platform edge in an empty station, an announcement comes on advising people to wait behind the yellow line. The next train that comes into that platform arrives at an agonizingly slow crawl. I wonder if this is related to Ottawa's refusal to use the green door opening buttons except at terminal stations, as using it requires people to come up to to touch the car sides/button. Occasionally as trains begin to depart latecommers still run up, often laughing, jabbing at the button. The trains may even stop because someone is touching the train, but the doors don't reopen so the jabber isn't rewarded by delaying the train.
Platform screen doors are very useful for people wearing glasses who fog up or get moisture covered in winter or inclement weather, or who wear masks that direct their warm moist exhales up over their face. I was shocked when Ottawa's tram opened how easy to was to mistake the gap between the cars for door openings when fogged up.
Indeed, the system uses lidar and is similar to the one used on the Eglinton Crosstown, I can't imagine it even cost much less than static barriers, despite being worse in most ways.
I just returned from Czechia and [the former East-]Germany and experienced several elevators where there was a lobby-side door to prevent people from falling into the shaft, but no in-car door. As the car moved, the shaft wall slid by, up or down, so don't lean on it. I chalk this up to a disappearing world experience, like French bird-cage elevators. In Prague I sought out a public building with a paternoster elevator, which city staff assured me was still in operation but closed to tourists as it took one onto the private working floors of the municipal building. Claiming I came all the way from Canada to see it didn't make her budge.
Different parts of each door open according to the position of the train doors. It turns out S.T engineering has a page and a document on that type of platform door. I will message you with a link.
I think it's important to interrogate why they haven't been installed already. A factor that rarely is discussed when this comes up regarding the Toronto subway is that in the event of a fire, one of the primary means by which smoke is vented from the station is through the tunnels. If full height platform doors are installed, a station's entire ventilation system needs to be re-engineered and rebuilt, which may include installing new or expanded fan plants, shafts, plenums, dampers, smoke-control systems, or any electrical infrastructure.
With SkyTrain, there are a large number of stations which are open to the elements, notably wind. Many of the stations are elevated. How wind moves through the station has been calculated and informs the station's design. Erecting platform edge doors needs to factor in wind loads and other considerations and may be considerably more complex than it might seem.
There is no argument that platform edge doors are a good idea, but (to be slightly blunt) whether the value of the investment and the complexity it entails outweighs the cost of managing track incursions is likely going to be the determining factor as to whether a project like this would be pursued.
Obviously there are some considerations that may complicate things, but I don't think these stand up to much scrutiny.
So many subway systems have retrofitted screen doors at this point that I don't think it's reasonable to suggest Toronto or Vancouver having wind loads or smoke ventilation considerations are even unique. Hundreds, if not thousands of subway stations in wealthy Asian countries have been retrofit - surely they also needed to consider wind loads and smoke in case of a fire. In Paris and Madrid many of the metro stations which have and are being treated are a century old! In many cases as I mentioned the solution appears to be just not running the doors all the way to the ceiling.
Of course you need to be thoughtful when modifying a structure which tens of thousands pass through daily, and you need to consider how those modifications impact its function - but we've seen jurisdictions like Japan do this rapidly and at a fraction of the price that gets proposed in North America - and Japan is a very safe country!
None of this is to say that this stuff is trivial, but its certainly not so complex that a country with multiple cities with more stations than all of Canada has not put barriers almost everywhere in just a decade or two. They too have tons of elevated stations etc. The reflexive "we need to consider these unique conditions!" response, when other places surely have their own, and probably often the same conditions is something I have seen gum up progress many many times. It would be rational to say "if it was a good or simple idea we'd probably have already done it" but I've seen us *not* do these things too many times for me to think its a major factor.
The cost point is fine and completely rational, but places in East Asia are much more hardcore about cost control and operational benefit than we are. I don't think they install the doors everywhere because of a vague sense of public good, but because they have a real massive operational and thus cost benefit.
Just trying to emphasize that often the doing of the thing is over simplified. Ie) I’ve heard some draw the conclusion that because UP Express has platform screen doors that the path to implementing the same technology on the subway would be a simple prospect when in fact it is several measures more complex that that, forgetting the uniqueness of the UP Express condition and the fact it’s only done at the termini (and is still done manually, which is not practical with subway headways). I raise these things not as justification as to why these things ought not to be done, they often should, but when asking “why haven’t we” there’s often a logical (and usually cost-driven) rationale as to why it’s been slow to implement.
Ottawa's tram trains have platform edge sensors. If one stands close to the platform edge in an empty station, an announcement comes on advising people to wait behind the yellow line. The next train that comes into that platform arrives at an agonizingly slow crawl. I wonder if this is related to Ottawa's refusal to use the green door opening buttons except at terminal stations, as using it requires people to come up to to touch the car sides/button. Occasionally as trains begin to depart latecommers still run up, often laughing, jabbing at the button. The trains may even stop because someone is touching the train, but the doors don't reopen so the jabber isn't rewarded by delaying the train.
Platform screen doors are very useful for people wearing glasses who fog up or get moisture covered in winter or inclement weather, or who wear masks that direct their warm moist exhales up over their face. I was shocked when Ottawa's tram opened how easy to was to mistake the gap between the cars for door openings when fogged up.
Indeed, the system uses lidar and is similar to the one used on the Eglinton Crosstown, I can't imagine it even cost much less than static barriers, despite being worse in most ways.
I just returned from Czechia and [the former East-]Germany and experienced several elevators where there was a lobby-side door to prevent people from falling into the shaft, but no in-car door. As the car moved, the shaft wall slid by, up or down, so don't lean on it. I chalk this up to a disappearing world experience, like French bird-cage elevators. In Prague I sought out a public building with a paternoster elevator, which city staff assured me was still in operation but closed to tourists as it took one onto the private working floors of the municipal building. Claiming I came all the way from Canada to see it didn't make her budge.
Very interesting! And also very funny if a little sad that they wouldn't let you ride the lift!
Paternoster not safe? Try a "Man-Lift." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kPOxeV2lzs
I used these in the grain mills in Streetsville, Ontario (Mississauga). Terrifying at first, but you get used to them - just hop on, hop off. ;-)
Here is a thought? How about variable-pitch platform screen doors?
These are compatible with multiple door arrangements.
You're going to have to explain what you mean by variable-pitch!
Different parts of each door open according to the position of the train doors. It turns out S.T engineering has a page and a document on that type of platform door. I will message you with a link.
I think it's important to interrogate why they haven't been installed already. A factor that rarely is discussed when this comes up regarding the Toronto subway is that in the event of a fire, one of the primary means by which smoke is vented from the station is through the tunnels. If full height platform doors are installed, a station's entire ventilation system needs to be re-engineered and rebuilt, which may include installing new or expanded fan plants, shafts, plenums, dampers, smoke-control systems, or any electrical infrastructure.
With SkyTrain, there are a large number of stations which are open to the elements, notably wind. Many of the stations are elevated. How wind moves through the station has been calculated and informs the station's design. Erecting platform edge doors needs to factor in wind loads and other considerations and may be considerably more complex than it might seem.
There is no argument that platform edge doors are a good idea, but (to be slightly blunt) whether the value of the investment and the complexity it entails outweighs the cost of managing track incursions is likely going to be the determining factor as to whether a project like this would be pursued.
Thanks for the note.
Obviously there are some considerations that may complicate things, but I don't think these stand up to much scrutiny.
So many subway systems have retrofitted screen doors at this point that I don't think it's reasonable to suggest Toronto or Vancouver having wind loads or smoke ventilation considerations are even unique. Hundreds, if not thousands of subway stations in wealthy Asian countries have been retrofit - surely they also needed to consider wind loads and smoke in case of a fire. In Paris and Madrid many of the metro stations which have and are being treated are a century old! In many cases as I mentioned the solution appears to be just not running the doors all the way to the ceiling.
Of course you need to be thoughtful when modifying a structure which tens of thousands pass through daily, and you need to consider how those modifications impact its function - but we've seen jurisdictions like Japan do this rapidly and at a fraction of the price that gets proposed in North America - and Japan is a very safe country!
None of this is to say that this stuff is trivial, but its certainly not so complex that a country with multiple cities with more stations than all of Canada has not put barriers almost everywhere in just a decade or two. They too have tons of elevated stations etc. The reflexive "we need to consider these unique conditions!" response, when other places surely have their own, and probably often the same conditions is something I have seen gum up progress many many times. It would be rational to say "if it was a good or simple idea we'd probably have already done it" but I've seen us *not* do these things too many times for me to think its a major factor.
The cost point is fine and completely rational, but places in East Asia are much more hardcore about cost control and operational benefit than we are. I don't think they install the doors everywhere because of a vague sense of public good, but because they have a real massive operational and thus cost benefit.
Just trying to emphasize that often the doing of the thing is over simplified. Ie) I’ve heard some draw the conclusion that because UP Express has platform screen doors that the path to implementing the same technology on the subway would be a simple prospect when in fact it is several measures more complex that that, forgetting the uniqueness of the UP Express condition and the fact it’s only done at the termini (and is still done manually, which is not practical with subway headways). I raise these things not as justification as to why these things ought not to be done, they often should, but when asking “why haven’t we” there’s often a logical (and usually cost-driven) rationale as to why it’s been slow to implement.